Don’t buy A Duck – Derek Champagneadmin
Hey, everybody, welcome back to The Lance Tamashiro Show. I have a great guest here for you today. You know, we're going to talk a lot about building a brand, doing some marketing, and a lot about ducks is what I'm assuming here today. We're going to talk to Derek Champagne, who is an entrepreneur. Been one from an early age, like most of us, and he's always been interested in fostering connections and finding an audience, both in marketing and the music fields. I'm sure we're going to hear a little bit about that.
He is now the CEO of The Artist Evolution, which is a marketing, design, and practice management firm that he founded way back now in 2007. It's kind of weird to think that 2007's like way back now, isn't it? He helps businesses of all budgets design and implement market strategies, marketing strategies that work. He's developed and managed brands of marketing campaigns in lots of different industries from start-ups, like a lot of you, to household names, and he's pioneered marketing strategies in the medical and dental communities and has tons of experience in advertising, branding, et cetera.
Derek, I'm super excited to have you here today. Welcome to the show. Maybe you can kind of fill people in on how you got in this position of having this marketing firm, starting this up, and what that was like getting going with that.
Excellent. Lance, thanks for having me today. I am a fan of your show and I'm excited to be here. My background, if you had told me ten or about fifteen years ago that I would be managing a marketing firm, I probably wouldn't have been overly surprised because I'm entrepreneur like you and many of the listeners. Definitely where I am now is a different direction from where I started.
Since an early age, I have been an entrepreneur. I have a musical background and any music fans or any musicians out there that were serious about their craft and toured and book shows, you really have to find a way to have boots on the ground and to hustle and to look for any way that you can make a connection between your product and music, your performance, and how to actually get it out there and perform.
That was my early start. My parents were touring musicians back in the late 70's and early 80's when I was just a little bitty guy, so I kind of started my life watching things that way with the performers and being a part of that and working sound and going to shows and traveling. I developed an interest really early on and got the music bug, of course, being in that environment.
As I grew up, I was in bands and toured a lot and had some success with music, but I always had businesses, too. I had my first business at the age of 18. By the time I was 25, I had developed and sold a couple of companies and moved to Los Angeles, actually, to go to music school. I had a business there as well. I had the opportunity to do some really cool stuff in music out there and get music on soundtracks of some TV shows and I was in the house band of The Viper Room back when Johnny Depp owned it.
Those were the days. I love talking about those days because now we have clients of all sizes and budgets. Back then we didn't have that, so it was really about the raw, honest, grassroots way that you make a connection. We actually go back to that a little bit. We actually have in our campaigns that we built for our larger clients even, we had this boots-on-the-ground section that makes us go back to the early days so that we're not forgetting. Sometimes it's easy to look at big budgets and forget about some of the simple things and simple ways of connecting.
The first, most important question is what did you play in the band? You're the drummer, right?
No, I was actually bass player and a backup singer.
Awesome. You know one of the things that really sticks out to me when you talk about this is this whole idea of grassroots, boots-on-the-ground marketing and I think that I'd like to find out a little bit more about this because I think that the big appeal for a lot of people that listen to this show is exactly that. They're just starting out. They don't have giant budgets. I think they look around the landscape of all of the options that are available today and it almost becomes so overwhelming that they throw up their hands and do absolutely nothing rather than something, which is always better than nothing.
That's such a great point and I'll talk about it a little bit more later, I guess, but I have a new book that I built as, I consider, a must-have handbook that documents not only my experiences with music back in the early days, but it documents based on my experience with all the countless brands that we've consulted with over the last decade. I put all of that together into one concise, 115-, 120-page book that really focuses on step-by-step implementation, affordable strategies. The boots-on-the-ground approach, that really started, again, I think I was 18 when I had my first bulk-mailing permit. I was already hustling to get music out there and promote my business and find any affordable ways that I could.
You're right. A lot of businesses, they'll throw up their hands because there's so much to do and it costs so much, and where do you put your money? Where's the best place to spend it? There's no shortage of places to spend it and if you're like I am, and I know that we're all in a similar situation here, we're always looking for solutions, right? If somebody says, "Hey, I've got an idea for you and I'll share it with you in a few weeks," we're probably not going to wait a few weeks. We're going to get right online and we're going to find answers. If we don't know how to build a website and we can't afford one, we're probably going to learn how to build one.
Entrepreneurs are very resourceful, but we have our limitations and sometimes not knowing where to spend something or not knowing the best channel, it can be very frustrating. We start to kind of get scattered and suddenly the entrepreneur is handling all of the aspects of the business and becomes all creative and all of the components when they should be also focusing on developing that amazing product or service that they were passionate about and that woke them up early in the morning or kept them up late at night working on in the first place. We don't want to lose that entrepreneurial spirit. It's so important.
The early days, an example I have that I like with the boots-on-the-ground is back in the days of playing The Viper Room. We were playing three or four nights a week on the sunset strip there in Hollywood. You know, it's called "pay-to-play" out there, which is sad that these musicians come from all over the world to play in great states, but in Hollywood there's no shortage of great bands and they pay to play. You actually pay to play at the House of Blues, at The Viper Room, at the Key Club, the Whisky a Go Go, and I paid to play at all of those, but we started to look for other solutions.
Being wired as I am we found that we could partner with ... there were these hostels. Here were all these bands paying to play and having only a few people show up and they were tired of coming and how many times can you go support your friend's band before you say, "You know, I cam three times last week. Why are you playing again next week? Love you, but I've got the CD." Back then it was CDs. We contacted hostels. We realized this amazing city, I think it had eighteen hostels, but twelve legitimate hostels, and every single day people were coming in from all over the world. They weren't sure what to do. They loved American music. They were looking for someone with an inside connection to bring them to the clubs. Some of them didn't have a ride. It's very confusing to get around Los Angeles. It's not a very friendly city to get around in unless you've got a rental vehicle and are ready to spend hundreds of dollars on a cab ride, one-way sometimes.
We actually had girlfriends and fans of the band and ourselves. We started going to these hostels and bringing tickets and saying, "Hey, if we pick you up, will you come to the show?" We met them where they were and sometimes you've got to meet your ideal customer where they are in order to be relevant. Identify who they are, understand what motivates them, and provide a bridge.
It got popular enough for us that we were renting fifteen-passenger vans and we had a contract with six of the hostels. Everyday or every time there was a show, there was a promotion, we would have to bus in multiple times. Here was a product or service that was good music, but we had other bands we played with that were good as well. The difference was they had ten people there and we had people from all over the world lined up down Sunset Boulevard around the corner. That drew attention when our name was on the marquee and the club owners took notice of that as well and that's why with The Viper Room, that's why they made us the house band is because we brought people in and they bought things.
That's an example of there's not always a simple answer and everybody's been doing it the same way and people are frustrated and so if you can look at your product or service and go, "How can I think outside the box?" If the door's locked, are there windows unlocked? How do you get into where you need to get in and actually make a connection and give your ideal target no excuse to say no? That's the idea behind that. Now that we work with all these different brands, and we work with several startups in a dozen states, we build brands from New York to California. Then we've got a ton of mom-and-pop businesses that we help. We like to always in our integrated plan have that boots-on-the-ground strategy so that we're not forgetting.
You know, I love that story. I spent a lot of time in L.A. and one of the things that I always realized was the bars and the clubs and the nice spots that you always wanted to get into always had a line. Then when you finally got in you're like, "It's empty in here."
What I love about the story that you told is the whole figuring out something outside of the box that was super obvious. I mean, create your own line, do your own stuff. I think that so many times as entrepreneurs, we're taught this "model success, model success," and I think that what so many people lose in that model success thing is they look at it more like a science than an art where, "Well, he did XYZ, so I'm going to do XYZ, too," and they can't figure out why it worked. The truth is when you start digging in, they did something outside of the box like what you're talking about.
I just think that's such an important lesson for everybody that's struggling. Step outside of yourself, you know? Take a look at the bigger picture, which is sometimes really hard to do and sometimes why you need a service like yours or a coach or whatever it is to see those other angles, but it's always right in front of you and I think there's a difference between modeling and cloning. You're never going to be able to clone somebody. I think people lose that.
Right. I'm not diminishing some of the other important tools. We do campaigns where we've got massive pay-per-click campaigns and paid social ads and billboards across the state and flyer campaigns and direct mail. We produce TV spots and online promotional storytelling videos and press releases, radio spots. We do those traditional things, but those shouldn't be a crutch.
Sometimes, oftentimes, we'll go into an audit. With even some larger companies, we have these marketing audits and we go right into audit mode when we meet with our client for the first time and we just say, "Tell us what you've been doing and let's lay it all on the table. Everything marketing, objective, business-related, and let's take inventory and before we make any decisions or any judgment or before I share one ounce of advice because I need to understand your situation, too."
See, I take the same principle I had back then and I apply to how I work with each client. We like to look at what they're doing. I'll hear, "You know, that didn't work," or, "We're not doing that anymore." I'll see two groups. Either those who put their head in the sand because they're scared and they've been burned and they give up - their businesses might continue on, but not at the level of success that they could have - or I see those that try to outspend bad decisions. That's dangerous, too. The tools all have an appropriate place.
I have a chapter in my book that says, "The Yellow Pages Are Dead and Other Lies Businesses Tell Themselves." That's a bit tongue-in-cheek because I can't tell you the last time I've recommended increasing a phone book ad, and in fact, we usually are eliminating them. My point of that chapter is before you dismiss anything, before you commit to anything, understand your target. Go back to the basics and let's look at these principles.
I lay out the steps: "Here's some things we can do and let's make sure that one, we understand our target; number two, let's make sure that what we have is unique." You've got a great product, but make sure your understand your competitors. We don't do competitor analysis in order to copy them. We do it to understand where there's a gap in the marketplace, where there's some commonalities in the needs of the customers if we share a similar target base. We do in-depth studies where we say ... you see how it's evolved for me over the years from the early music days. We have a pretty sophisticated system now, but it's really not that complicated. I do lay out each step. Really, it's, "Let's look at your entire landscape."
Then when I hear people say, "I don't have competition." Well, we usually, 99% of the time we find out that's not true when we really dig. Then our clients that don't have any competition and are relying on that, that's a crutch, too, because if you don't have competition, you've got something worth having, look in your rear view mirror because somebody's coming up behind you to take it. You want to be able to stay ahead of it.
We lay out several strategies that say, "Hey, you're starting at the beginning. Don't panic, okay? If you're not starting at the beginning, you're having challenges, that's okay. I'm going to commit to you that we're going to learn this together if you promise me that you won't spend one more penny or get frustrated until you've read these hundred pages. Let's walk through this together. I'll share gold-standard case studies and I'll share examples of clients that I've worked with over the years and we'll share some grassroots strategies. Let's, when you're done with this, [inaudible 00:14:09] confident in what your next step is with marketing your product or your business."
You know, what I love about the approach that you're laying out is that a lot of times when you go to a marketing consultant or you go to a traffic consultant or you go to a coach, the first thing they say is, "You're doing all this wrong. Do it my way." What's hidden behind that, what I find out more often than not is, you want me to do it your way because you're going to get paid more by me doing that and you're going to have me tear everything down and then go back. I love that you sort of start with that audit thing.
The Yellow Page example, I think, is genius because you do have to understand where your market is. While Yellow Pages is dying and people are pulling that out, there's a huge demographic, I'm thinking of my mother, who won't use the internet. They've always used the Yellow Pages and they will continue to use the Yellow Pages and that doesn't mean that you should only look at the Yellow Pages, but you need to understand, like you're saying, that where is your market. Who are they? What are they doing?
Right. Where are the bridges? Once you really start and understand where your niche is and its worth doing, and I tell people several times in different podcasts and articles I write is, if you haven't done this, stop right now and make sure you do. I want to make sure you understand what your unique story is and how it's relevant to your target because if you don't, you're going to do all this busy work and then three years later you're going to go back. We do these audits and we're like, "Man, I wish we'd been here from day one," or, "It's not too late to change." Sometimes they're small tweaks. We go to a client and we say, hey, we do build websites and we do videos and things like that, but if a client has that, our goal is never to have to recreate it. We want to do an inventory of tools that work and if they work, don't touch them. We don't need you to rebuild it. Can we make little tweaks and increase your conversion? Then we need to.
We've got a new client that we're working with right now that we're still developing their plan and they're primarily online-based. They're a national company. They are the leader in their niche. In fact, they are the gold standard of this product and their conversion rate on their website is scarily low. We can go in there and make some small tweaks. We can change. We can increase the top line of the business. We might be able to double it. A fifty-year old institution. That's incredible when you go in and practically look at things and say, "I'm your target. I'm going in. Hold my hand. Don't give me any excuse to say no. You took the time to reach out to me. Now finish the process."
We have such a short attention span now. How long do you spend when you go shopping for something? Amazon's my new search engine. I use Amazon to search for things I want and then I just click and buy on my phone. I did it twice today for some podcast things I needed. Amazon's my search engine because they make it easy for me to say yes and they hold my hand through the entire process.
We want to do that even if you're a plumbing company or whatever your business is, make sure if you took the time to spend the money and the time to reach out to your target [inaudible 00:17:16], that you find a lot of times in the conversion not happening and seeing frustrated client leads that we have is because they didn't quite finish the process. It's just part of engaging and converting a customer.
I want to talk really quickly. The book is called, Don't Buy a Duck: Stop Wasting Money and Only Do the Marketing that Works. Awesome title, to begin with, but you've mentioned a couple of times it's a 100-page book. This is a sit down and read. Looking at it and seeing all this stuff, I mean, this isn't a text book, right? This is written, it gets to the point, it talks about it.
I also have heard you mention when you get a new client and stuff, the first thing you tell them is go read this and go through the process, which I think is unheard of almost in this type of niche. Talk a little bit about exactly what this book is and where it's going to take readers.
Yes, so the education process of understanding how we work, we have a unique approach that we take. There's a lot of great agencies out there, but our niche is different and I carved it out very intentionally so that, just like I talked about a minute ago, by understanding where it's open in the market, that's what we found.
The book, Don't Buy a Duck, is my being an eight-year old and driving around in, I think it was a 1978 Oldsmobile station wagon, in northwest Arkansas. My mom had one of those vehicles that automatically turns when it sees a yard sale whether you need something or not. We turned one day and my brother and I each had five dollars and I talked him into letting me spend it for him wisely. He was my older brother.
We went around the corner of this church estate sale and there was a duck. It had a little string on its webbed foot and in all the sense of an eight-year old, my mind said, I said, "I have to have that." It all made sense. The stars aligned. I had purpose and I said, "Mom, that's my duck." It was ten bucks. That's how I got my brother to pitch in five. She said, "Are you sure you want to do that?" She knew something I didn't. I said, "I've got to have it."
We put it in a cardboard box, put it in the back of the station wagon, and within minutes you know that feeling you get after you've made a purchase? Small-business owners can especially relate to this. If you've made an advertising purchase or maybe you went and leased a car you shouldn't have bought or you went and bought a big, flat-screen TV, or you got some new office furniture, or you signed up for a pool in your backyard, whatever it is, and you signed it, you had wanted it, you got it, and then you had that creeping, sick feeling that you get in your stomach? We can all relate to it. Especially when we've bought some bad advertising. That's the first time I ever had that feeling.
When I had that feeling and that duck flew out of the box like an albatross ... to an eight-year old it felt like an albatross in the car ... it kind of went crazy in the station wagon, so we dropped it off at the neighbor's pond. We named it Quackers. He lived with the neighbors.
That was my first lesson and that's the premise of the book is saying, hey, that's my coining of it. When I talk to clients, I say, "Let's not buy a duck. Let's look through, let's think it through. Let's make sure it's something we're going to keep, that we're going to be happy we took, and if you bought a duck, that's fine. We have some strategies for returning it or for getting rid of it or bartering it." The book lays that initial premise.
Then I talk about the identity crisis, a brand's Bermuda Triangle, and that's where we find often that the true identity and how you stand out and what your niche is going to be and what your message is going to be, making sure that's clearly defined. I walk through step-by-step on how to do that. Then I talk about knowing your territory. Who's your market? Who's your competition? How do you carve out your niche?
This is very practical reading. You know, I've been in marketing for many years and I've never liked the marketing speak. I like to talk to my clients and to my coworkers with regular language like we're talking right now. We can do that. We're not trying to intimidate or show off to anybody. I'm trying to share relatable experiences. I've done close to a thousand business consults, marketing consults over the last decade, so I have a great compass of seeing what are the common crisis points that businesses deal with. That's what I write about in this book.
I talk about writing a plan. If your marketing's not going according to plan, maybe it's because you don't have a plan. I lay out the step-by-step of what needs to be in your plan, how to build a holistic marketing plan, and how to follow it. These are principles that I haven't seen laid out this way anywhere else because a lot of times as consultants, we try to hold onto that, right?
I let it all out here. Our graphic design team here built out example holistic diagrams that are very similar to what we build for real clients. We put that out there as well.
I talk about it's what's on the inside that counts. Often, one of the crisis points we've seen with all of these businesses is that they have holes in the bucket, so they do this external advertising and they keep trying to externally bring people in. Well, depending on what you offer, you can't always be in just new-customer-acquisition mode because your pool of new customers might not be infinite. Some niches have a finite amount of customers, either geographically or because of the type of product or service they offer, that has a finite number on it. You want to be careful, very careful, that when you take the time and energy and the cost of bringing in a new customer, that you retain them. I give strategies for doing that because when you have holes in the bucket, it's harder to keep filling it up.
We talk about internal marketing strategies and how to best relate to your customer. We show percentages and studies about how much easier it is to sell to an existing customer, how much likely they are to buy. We share some mistakes that we've seen some of our clients make and some gold-standard companies make. We share some things that gold-standard companies are doing very well.
Then we talk about execution. Execution is everything. How to get from your own five-yard line to the end zone. One of the biggest things that we see, and I'm doing a talk on Tuesday night, and all I'm talking about to this group of dentists is execution. That's it because it's so common to build a plan, to set up a plan, and then to not execute it consistently. That's what we hear commonly.
In this book, we lay out here's how you build your plan and then here's how you execute it consistently to make first downs. The end zones are your objectives, right? In the book, we talk about here's the kind of objectives you can make and here's how to set goals for your company. Here's how to be realistic about it, too. It's great to want to run a marathon, but if you're not in shape, you're not going to run the marathon today, but you might be able to run a half-marathon. Let's run the half-marathon in two months and let's work up to that full marathon. You're going to look back in three months from now and go, "Wow, I ran the marathon. I'm not on the sidelines."
When you set very specific goals that are reasonable, but aggressive, for your business, we then show you how, and it shows you in the book how, you then actually back into the plan and set daily, weekly, monthly, bi-monthly, seasonal, unique to your industry. It's a step-by-step calendar that you follow. Each month when you look back, you go, "Wow. I'm making first downs. I'm making first downs." Then you hit the end zone and, man, it's so hard to be patient. It's really hard to be patient when we want things now, but there's nothing like execution.
My business is succeeding and doing very well because we've been coined "the execution specialists". Our clients will tell you we don't drop the ball. We make first downs every week. Those guys don't miss it. They carry it, they quarterback it, and they continue to help us meet our objectives. That's what I teach in this book is how to do that for yourself as well.
There's so much good stuff in there. One of the big things, just like how you don't break everything down, is that holistic approach. When I first thought about having you on here, I was thinking, "Well, he's going to have these strategies and he's going to talk specific." You obviously do have that, but what I love is it's not all about Adwords, it's not all about Facebook. It's not all about all of these things. It's what works for you and how do you figure out what it is that's going to work for you so that you're doing the things that, like the books says, that work.
You've got it. That's right.
One of the things that's sticking out to me as your talking, and I'm assuming this is how the book is written as well, is the way that you talk, like you said, in plain language. I loved the story about the duck because what you hear so often around entrepreneurial circles is like, "I've got another bright, shiny object. I got distracted by this thing." It's like, "No, you didn't. You bought a duck." That story is exactly what happens to all of us. It's in such a way that everybody can relate to and everybody's actually experienced. I don't know anybody that hasn't bought a duck before.
The thing is is that the way that you phrase this and the way that you phrase all of your stuff, the execution, the step-by-step, it's so much more useful than these cliches that we hear around all of the time in marketing. Because once I understand that I bought a duck, now at least I can realize that that's what I'm doing. It's not because it's this shiny object, or whatever else I want to call it, it's because I'm making poor decisions and I'm making decisions without all of the information. That's what got me in trouble, not because it was shiny and I liked it. I think there's so much power in how you laid out this system for people to figure out where they're at and where they need to be and what they want to accomplish, the end zone.
I'm the same. I'm the profile of probably most of your listeners. I've listened to your podcast. I'm always hungry for information and knowledge, too, and I teach it often, but I'm a student of the game. I wrote this as practical application. I'm a regular guy. I'm conversational, I'm relatable, and so I wrote this to have that same style. Seth Godin, who's a marketer that a lot of people know, he endorsed the front of this book and said, "If you had a smart friend who knew a lot about marketing, this is precisely what they'd tell you over coffee." It's me sitting down with you and sharing everything that I can and that I know that I think will help most small-business owners around these five crisis points.
You're completely right about that shiny object. The reason I like to also have clients read this or understand these principles first is so that they also understand what the shiny object is and that we're not getting it just because it's shiny. We play, we do a ton of media, we do a lot of digital things. I do address that in the book and I talk about it, but it's not all about the digital. You've got to understand this initial framework before you identify if that digital ad is a good fit for you or not. That's kind of the principle behind it is get these first.
Then I have a chapter called, "Getting Married is an Emotional Decision." Marketing decisions shouldn't be. When you can take the emotion out, not take the passion out, you hear me talking. I am so passionate about every client, every project, every meeting that I have, I love what I do and my reward, obviously I do well, but my reward is to actually make a difference. I'd be out of business tomorrow if I wasn't moving the needle for clients. We get paid based on moving the needle. When you have a strategy built and you start to rely on those things and you know you're not buying ducks and you know how to identify ducks, then you don't have to be emotional about it. It's so fun to work on campaigns where we do have a budget, too, and our clients get this. We have fun. We analyze the data.
I have something called PETMAG that I've created. It's plan, execute, track, measure, adjust, grow. I go through that step-by-step in the book, later in the book after I've laid down these basic principles and framework. When you follow that, you grow. It's not emotional, it's strategic.
I mean, I think it's fantastic. I actually just bought the Kindle version as you were talking. It's rare when you hear something and I can just tell by your passion and talking about this and the way that you're laying this stuff out, this is something that needs to be read. Even if you think you've got it all figured out, you're going to pick something up out of this book no matter where you're at in your business. Where can people find out more about this or more about you?
You might be surprised at this, but the website is dontbuyaduck.com.
I actually found it on my search engine, Amazon.
Well, I'm glad. This book became a bestseller last month in ten categories in the United States. It did very well in Germany and Australia, too, so we've got a great response is happening from this book. I think it's resonating with people.
What we've tried to do to make it additional value is at the end of every chapter of this book, we have an offer. There's a code where you can text "DUCK" to and it sends you a free marketing tracking calendar that you use for your business that follows the principles in this book. That is something that we have. Then we also have other tools that we provide as well at no charge that we send. We actually even provide the tools that we recommend in here and send them as well. We also have a business leadership series ongoing, kind of educational platform, that is by invitation only and those that have the book can text in. They get to join this network that we have as well. We have leaders from all over the world that are actually joining in around this conversation and keeping it going and trying to encourage and inspire leaders.
Awesome. I love it. Okay, so everybody is going to go check out Don't Buy a Duck. Before I let you go, and I appreciate you've shared just a ton of crazy-valuable, eye-opening perspectives on business I think that everybody needs to have, but before I let you go, I've got to ask you this. What is, besides the ones in your book and the stuff that you give away with yours, what's one great website or one great tool or one thing that you just think people need to know about?
Wow, there's a lot of things.
You've got to pick one.
Got to pick one. I've got a mentor that I like to work with, Dr. Stephen R. Graves, he's got stephenrgraves.com, who is a business coach and has worked with greats like Sam Walton from Walmart, and all kinds of business owners. Gives great practical advice. It's faith-based, but it pushes back and it almost feels like you have your own private consultant and sends a weekly email. It's all free. You get that weekly email in your inbox and it talks to you specifically about things that you might be dealing with and has, I think, a free book called, The Hero Leader, that addresses how to have balance in life and how to scratch the entrepreneurial itch. That's probably one of the good ones that I like.
Awesome. I love it. I'm going to definitely go check that out right now. Derek, I super appreciate you doing this. Everybody, go check out Don't Buy a Duck at dontbuyaduck.com. Fantastic book. I'm blown away. I think your perspective is so unique. I think it's totally fresh. What I love about it is it's so relatable and usable. So many people, especially in the consultants and talking about business process, they get in this world where I just kind of glaze over. I love your approach to all of this. I think this is definitely something that everybody in business or thinking about business needs to take advantage and take a look at. Again, thanks so much for doing this.
Thank you, Lance. I want to invite any listeners to connect with me on LinkedIn as well. Just look up "Derek Champagne". It's a great platform that I like to use and keep in touch with others.
Awesome. Thank you very much and we'll see you all on the next show. Bye now.